I ain’t sayin‘, I’m just sayin‘.
I appreciate his take and agree with Justin on this. I’m not saying it means anything, but I also can’t dismiss it as pure coincidence. Was God trying to get our attention? If so, what was he trying to say? What should we be hearing? Take a look at this story, it’s only a few short paragraphs, and comment on the discussion going on at Justin’s site, or comment here. Either way, join in the discussion and share your thoughts. And above all, seek God and His Truth in all things.
At approximately 2 pm yesterday, a tornado touched down in downtown Minneapolis. It was the first tornado to hit this area in nearly 90 years. Even more profound is that the agenda for the churchwide assembly stated that discussion surrounding the proposed human sexuality statement would begin at, you guessed it, 2 pm.
via Tornado Hits Near ELCA Assembly Hall During Vote | BeDeviant.com.
Kevin Gilbert
So… I assume from this that we are to consider it "possible" that the God of the Universe, the greatest intellect to ever exist, with the ability to communicate in any fashion, the ability to convince anyone (after all he is god right?) chose the rather obscure message format of a tornado? hmmm… I wonder what he is trying to say when he allows children to go hungry, be born with birth defects, be raped, or killed with tidal waves. Someone needs to get this guy a blackberry and some communications classes… maybe even counseling where he can learn that "Love me or else I will kill you and burn you forever in hell (even if I made you for hell – Rom 9:11)" is not the best way to handle personal relationships.Of course there is also the curious question of why such a superior being with so much to do would be concerned with what sexual positions are currently in and among whom… call me crazy but this seems to be way down on the list of things God might want to speak clearly on.
Then of course there is the possibility that this was just a freak chance of nature like so many things clearly are… but I get it… its much more fun to assume an angry God upset at fags… just sayin.
I figured you might have something to say about this one. 😉 And I welcome your thoughts. For the record, I do believe that anything's possible. It is possible that it was a total freak of nature. A coincidence. Though the odds of that are pretty astronomical I would think. Which also makes me think that you should be willing to concede, at a minimum, that there's an equally astronomical chance that God could use it to give us a message.I don't find it "fun" to assume anything about God. I don't think He's any more upset with "fags" than He is with anyone else. I think He loves all equally. We as humans have distorted and convoluted that message. If you read the whole article, and the comments, you saw that there were individuals on both sides, and the author's take wasn't that this was definitely God's way of trying to get the ELCA's attention. The conversation was calm and rational. That's much better than extremists on either side blindly arguing their point.
It is tragic when children go hungry, or are born with birth defects. It is terrible when people are raped or when a natural disaster destroys people and their homes and their lives. But I also think that it is evidence that we live in an imperfect world. And I think it breaks God's heart. I don't believe this is the world He made for us, but it's the world we've created for ourselves. I'm no Bible scholar, but I'm pretty sure your translation of Romans 9:11 is a little off. At the very least, I'm pretty sure you're taking it out of context. And I thought it was only us Christians that did that. 😉 God loves everyone equally and wants nothing but the best for us all. We as Christians, however tend to let our legalistic beliefs get in the way of "love one another." It's much easier to judge, to condemn. And that is another tragedy that breaks God's heart.
That we, who have experienced the greatest grace and the most magnificent mercy, cannot seem to figure out how to let that same grace and mercy flow from us to our neighbor. To the homosexual. To the thief. To the liar. To the murderer. To the cheater. To the adulterer. To…name a sin. Name a wrong. We're all guilty of withholding our grace and mercy but fully capable of extending anger, wrath, judgment and condemnation. And that is tragic. And it breaks God's heart. And it should break our hearts, too. Does it break yours?
Breaks his heart? So he is all powerful and yet he is incapable of changing the heart of anyone in hell? Grace that condems his children to hell forever truely is AMAZING! Our prison systems have a better rate of reform. Can he seriously not communicate well enough to convince a single person in hell or is it that he just does not want to? Anyone can pick and choose the "warm fuzzy side" of Jesus if they like bit the verses are there and they are in context, maybe you should check and be more than "pretty sure I am taking it out of context"… his kind of love involves make "pots for refuse" in other words… people destined for hell without choice. As it says in Matthew he came not to bring peace but a sword to set person against person.
as to rape breaking his heart… well… 1 Sam 15:3'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and WOMAN, CHILD and INFANT, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "Stating that they were to kill the children evidently was not enough… God evidently felt he needed to make sure his blood thirst was clear, and for good measure he added INFANT… just in case some sympathetic soldier might be smitten with the cute and innocent eyes of a pagan new born. I often hear such verses defended by suggesting that God’s foreknowledge of the kind of pagans these infants would grow to be justifies his actions. This explanation falls short on several levels; however, if for argument sake we allow this defense to explain the fates of the pagans, it still does not explain the fates of the faithful in this situation. (continued in next post)
How can one characterize as “good” or as “fatherly” a God or a Heavenly Father that commands his faithful, his very own “children”, to witness and commit such atrocities. What scars must this leave on someone's psyche to witness, much less be commanded to commit the butchering of infants in their beds, and children in their play yards? We see the ravages of war in the minds of our young soldiers today, how much more would that mental pain be if they were commanded to commit such full scale genocide and atrocities. If God wanted to annihilate the pagans, why not do the dirty work himself as he does daily around the world? Why not wipe out the pagans with a natural disaster or a mysterious disease? If God wanted to be through with the pagans why not “close up their wombs” and let the generation die out on its own leaving no babies that must be slaughtered at a later date by God’s “chosen” people? (continued in next post)
Is it really better to ask your chosen people to personally decapitate children and babies or to run pregnant women through with a sword? I am sorry but a this sounds like a “God” who was dependent on the bloody sword of man, an invented God created by men to justify a genocide. If one can not muster any empathy for the pagan’s innocent children, their innocent infants, or their innocent livestock then surely the believer must have some empathy for the evil this commandment must been to the faithful soldier of God. (continued in next post)
I have also heard it argued that the age of accountability covers these children and infants. I have even heard this line of argument pressed to the extreme limit of saying that such genocides are actually a testimony of God’s grace to these infants because the slaughter of their lives before they became accountable ushers them immediately into heaven as opposed to hell, where they were likely destined had they been allowed to live and grow up in a pagan household. If this “age of accountability argument” is true then why doesn’t God love all of us enough to slaughter us before we reach the age of accountability. This also raises the issue that the doctrine of “age of accountability” is not directly or even indirectly supported by ANY scriptures, and in fact violates several scriptures and clear doctrines of the bible. (continued in next post)
For instance, many believers are very committed to the doctrine of “Free Will”, a doctrine that says it is up to us to decide for ourselves in this life whether to follow Christ or not and that from the beginning God had to give us a Free Will if he expected genuine love in return, because without Free Will we would be nothing but fancy “robots”. The problem is… if the Age of Accountability is held to be true then the doctrine of Free Will which is also a pillar of the faith must fall, because these infants were not given a chance to make a choice in this life… they were not given a free will, the decision was made for them. So like many doctrines of the religious, they conflict. (continued in next post)
To suggest that goodness comes from a biblical God that could wreak such evil on infants and mentally scar his own chosen people with commanding them to commit and witness such atrocities seems a bit irrational if not perverse. And of course this is only the tip of the iceberg. One of my favorites notorious scriptures is the condoning of taking young virgin war trophies and raping them so long as the troops wait 30 days and give them a nice hair cut and nail trimming… (continued in next post)
Here is the verse… Deut 21… "When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. "She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife." (continued in next post)
So goodness comes from a biblical God that states that as long as you give these young girls a nice short haircut, give them a manicure, and 30 days to cry it out… THEN you are allowed to have sex with them (even if they do not want to… RAPE) and that it is somehow not considered RAPE… rather it is a testimony of God's goodness and justice to let them continue breathing in a living hell.Well, I am not a woman and I do not have any daughters but I can not see how a haircut, a nail clipping and a 30 day delay equals anything but DELAYED RAPE and SLAVERY. The OT of course says you can not sell the virgin war trophies as you can other slaves (slavery is okay though) but it is okay for you to claim them like property and hold them against their will as your "beloved" wife. (continued in next post)
The point is, that such twisted views of justice and goodness are not unusual in the scriptures even among its most core doctrines. In the words of Robert Ingersoll… “The absurdity of the doctrine known as “The Fall of Man” gave birth to that other absurdity known as “The Atonement.” So that now it is insisted that, as we are rightfully charged with the sin of somebody else, we can rightfully be credited with the virtues of another."So while the answer… "Goodness comes from our Biblical God" is one candidate among other explanations, I would suggest that given the contradictions of the scriptures and the direct evidence of evil in this same God I would hope you could see why I find this a less than convincing candidate for an answer. (continued in next post)
So as to God being this loving just being… if he is then he is NOT the God of the bible. As the tornado being a sign… well where was he on all the other sexual statement votes that have happened over the years? He did not send tornadoes then… is either lazy, inattentive, or inconsistent… OR the tornado was just an act of nature and God (if one exists) is not anything like what the bible suggests… just saying 🙂
I think you're hogging the conversation. 😉 Some of us work for a living and don't have time to write a dissertation on our personal belief of God/god. Just kidding. I've seen most of your comments here, and have some things to add, just let me earn a few more $$ for dinner tonight. (And that beer we need to have for these discussions.) 🙂
lol… no doubt!! :~) Turns out that much of what I sent you were copy and pastes from my notes on the book I am writing… called the "Conversation" which btw, thanks for having one with me! Oh and on the beer… I have got to take you the Flying Saucer and order you a "Corsendonte Brown Ale"… amazing! And for the second round a "Celebrator" phenomenal. I am no expert but a friend turned me on to these.
Seriously, dude, I'm not even sure where to start, but I get at least 4 comments, before you can comment again. That's half of your eight!! 😉 Too much to keep up with at the moment. I'll have something for you by end of day, though. 🙂